Does Jesus Like Dream Pop? An Interview with Jonathan Ogden of Rivers and Robots

The main thing we want to do through our music is reveal the person of Jesus — Jonathan Ogden

Among contemporary worship artists, following a certain pattern designed to cultivate a familiar “worship feel” seems to yield more reward than artistic innovation and creativity.

That is, if you’re not Rivers and Robots.

Since 2012, the U.K. based worship band has pushed the boundaries of what worship music “should” sound like, pairing Scripture-laced lyrics with dreamy, synthy pop beats.

We hope our interview with lead singer of R&R, Jonathan Ogden, about Discovery, the group’s newest album, will inspire and encourage our readers to explore the contours of their creativity for the glory of God.

Discovery has the devotional, prayerful, straight-after-the-heart-of God lyrics listeners love from past works, but with an ethereal pop rock twist. What was the motivation behind the album and musical direction R&R took in Discovery?

With every Rivers & Robots album we do, we’re always looking for ways we can push things further and try out new ideas. We never want to make the same album twice. This time we had a line-up change so a lot of the musical changes were natural. Having our new drummer Caleb come in and help with the arrangements was definitely a big bonus for us. He’s currently studying pop music on his course, so he brought some different influences to our usual style, particularly on songs like Satisfy and Author/Perfector.

R&R excels at making scriptural themes, stories, and citations the center of the music (Forevermore is a stellar example of this). What does the intersection of your musical creativity and the teachings of Scripture look like?

The main thing we want to do through our music is reveal the person of Jesus, and we’re always looking to do that through our lyrics.

One of my favorite things as a writer is when I’m able to get a passage of scripture into a song’s melody almost word for word. A lot of this comes from my background of leading worship at Manchester House of Prayer. We have a model of worship called ‘Worship and the Word’ where we take a passage of scripture and sing through it (often a psalm). Quite often, choruses of our songs will come out that way, and then I’ll go back to that passage for writing verses, too.

In terms of the musical creativity, I just decided early on that I was going to write the kind of music I was excited about and the style that came naturally to me, and not worry so much about whether it’s suitable for a congregational worship time, or if it would even be popular. It was quite a freeing moment.

I guess it’s a strange combo to essentially be singing through scriptures and attributes of God with Indie/Dream Pop/ Electronic music, but it seems to have caught on!

Artists of all stripes straddle the tension between what they want to create and what their audience will actually engage with. How does R&R balance the demands of the market and “giving people what they want” with staying true to core principles?

Honestly, we try not to think about it. I think people are drawn to honesty and to genuine art that is created out of a place of passion. And the only way we can really do that is if we create what we’re passionate about and not what we think people want to hear. It’s definitely a factor, particularly when it comes to picking a single or the flow of an album; we’re thinking about how it’s going to come across to the audience and how we can introduce them to new ideas and have the album flow as a journey. But in terms of writing, we just enjoy the process of writing and pick the songs we’re most excited about.

In the chorus of Brighter than the Sun, you sing “You are the river The fountain, the stream. You go beyond all that we can conceive. So, open my eyes Father I want to see.” How does one put words to glorious truths beyond our very conception? As content creators, how do we open ourselves up to be conduits by which people can see the glory of God in our work?

This is a journey I’ve been on for a while! I want to point people to attributes of Jesus and reveal Him to people through our songs, but at the same time, I’ve had to embrace mystery. I think we have to when we’re referring to God because we’ll never fully grasp who He is and understand Him, but at the same time, He wants to reveal Himself to us and have us understand things.

That’s a big theme of what Discovery is about: following the call to Discovery the knowledge of God, while at the same time embracing the fact that we’ll never reach the end and never full know all that there is to know. We try and write out of a relationship of getting knowing God and singing about the things that He reveals to us through the Word. And I think if more people are doing that, we’re going to get a more complete picture by hearing about all the different ways that God has revealed His character and nature to each one of us.

Focusing for a moment on the sound of your music, what practical advice do you have for musicians who think “I want to make music like these guys”? Who are your musical influences? What editing software do you use? The classroom is yours!

We draw from quite a wide range of influences. Living in Manchester, it’s a big music city and we get to see a lot of live music which is always good for inspiration. Some of my big influences musically have been artists like Justin Vernon from Bon Iver, Fleet Foxes, Toro Y Moi, Grizzly Bear, Paul Simon, Beach Boys. I think the thing I’m most drawn to as a writer is melody. So that’s usually the starting point, singing a melody into my voice memos on my phone and then writing music around that.

I use Ableton Live to create a lot of the demos and the initial ideas for songs, and producing and arranging the song kinda happens at the same time as writing. I’m not the kind of person that just sits with a guitar or piano and writes a song. I like to pull up a bunch of synth sounds and drum loops and create these whole sound-scapes and then think ‘ok, what melody can I put to this’.

I guess the things that are pretty consistent in our sound is our vocal style. We like a lot of layers in our vocals. And I also love to create mood through textures. Maybe it’s little percussive sounds in the background or the loop of an acoustic guitar finger-picking, I just like to create a nice warm atmosphere.

As you look at the long-view, what kind of impact does R&R want to leave on its listeners and the worship music genre?

I’m really passionate about seeing people embrace creativity in their music, and also to understand that each of us are created uniquely, and that nobody else can write the songs that you can write, or create the things that you can create.

I see too much imitation happening at the moment with people trying to sound like somebody else, or try and get ‘the worship sound’ which shouldn’t really be a thing in my opinion! I love mainstream worship, and I sing a lot of those songs on a Sunday morning. But I also think the scope of what worship music can be is more than just what we sing on a Sunday morning. I’d love to see more diversity, and artists being confident in their own style and sound.

I have to ask: the sound of the music being submerged and coming up again out of the water in Forevermore, is there anything more to that?

We did that on one of the last days of mixing the album. The song originally just played out for a long time, and we felt like it wasn’t really going anywhere. We played around with different ideas, like fading it out, but it felt like an easy get-out. I was thinking about the whole theme of Discovery, and in a lot of the lyrics I talk about the knowledge of God being like an endless ocean and wanting to set out into discovering Him.

I had a friend of ours Ryan Pernofksi take a photo for the inside of the album art of a person diving underwater and I always loved that as a picture of diving into the discovery of the knowledge of God. And so we decided to create an audio version of that. We originally just had it go underwater and end, but it kinda sounded like you’d gone underwater and died (haha)! So we created the effect of resurfacing again at the end.

I wanted to switch the track to something else when the listener came out of the water, like you’d discovered something new. We ended up using a track that I was originally making for the intro of the album, it was this moody soundscape that introduced the theme of discovery, but it didn’t make tracklist, so we sampled that demo and used it to end the album instead!

So what do you do after a big release? Is it on to the next thing or is it time for a creative re-charge?

Our focus is on the live side of things now! We’re looking to tour with these new songs and worship together with people. We’ve done a UK and Europe tour, and also Singapore, Philippines and Japan. We’re hoping to do a bunch of trips to the States in 2019 and see what other opportunities come up. And then we’ll probably start writing again.

Where can people learn more about you and/or purchase Discovery?

All the info is available on our website – we’re also on Twitter and
Instagram as @riversandrobots

Christians, Muslims, and Gospel-Centered Friendships: An Interview with Dr. David Shenk

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As the global consultant for Eastern Mennonite Missions, Dr. David Shenk is a Mennonite and missionary with a passion for reaching Muslims with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Dr. Shenk has written, co-written, and contributed to several books on the subject of Christianity and Islam, including his award-winning book “Christian. Muslim. Friend: Twelve Paths to Real Relationship”, published in 2014.

As Kingdom Christians look outward to the nations hungry for the life-giving word of Jesus Christ, we appreciate Dr. Shenk for taking the time share his wisdom on how we can form friendships with Muslims and, in the process, be faithful and true witnesses of Jesus Christ.

Dr. Shenk, can you explain to our readers how you became involved in outreach and evangelism among Muslims?

My parents were pioneer missionaries in Tanzania among the Zanaki people. Bumangi was the name of their village. Illiteracy was 100%. I saw the Gospel touch people and I saw the Holy Spirit calling forth a redeemed people. My mission commitment was formed growing up within that missions experience. However, there were no Muslims living in our community. It was only many years later that I came in touch with Muslims; Eastern Africa was becoming mostly Christian.

However, when I was about six years old the Holy Spirit called me to follow Jesus.. By the time I was a teenager the call of God for missions was very clear. I built on that commitment, and in fact postponed marriage until my friend whom I was dating carried the same calling for missionary commitment that I carried.

Shortly after our marriage, Merlin Grove, who was director of Mennonite missions in Somalia, was martyred. God used his death to call us to Somalia and to the Muslim people. I knew that the man who pulled the knife did not know the love of God in Christ. So within a year of Merlin’s death our family of four was headed to Somalia for a four year term. We knew this was God’s appointment.

My introduction to your work was through your debates with Muslim apologist and scholar Shabir Ally (in which I took note of your irenic, non-combative approach to debating). How does a focus on the Kingdom of God shape both the issues we debate and how we debate?

The first day in Mogadishu I was invited to drink tea in the late evening. The conversation revealed that we could not serve in Somalia if we were not at peace with the people among whom we served. The first question the fellows asked around that tea table was, “Why did you come? If it is to convert us, go to the Hindus, but do not come to us as missionaries. We already know about God.

That evening I learned that I needed to earn the right to live and minister among the Somalis. After that evening I determined to earn my authority as a witness for Jesus by listening and firmly and gently share the good news of Jesus. And the questions about Jesus were everywhere. I did not need to invent reasons to share about Jesus. – everyone was curious about Jesus.

You talk in your book “Christian. Muslim. Friend.” about cultivating “real friendship” between Christians and Muslims. What is the difference between real friendship and “12 steps to get your Muslim friend to visit your church.” Or is there a difference?

I have just been in Uganda to celebrate with the university the publication of the Dialogue which was published forty years ago. Badru and I were the invited guests. A thousand people, mostly academics, were present to hear the two of us speak of our friendship. That is why people came. Not to hear Shenk and Badru but rather to observe our friendship.

Badru talked about the essence of peacemaking being tolerance and dialogue. I responded asking whether we should commit to truth, not just tolerance. I said that there is a Man standing within the hundreds present, and if we listen we will hear him say follow me! Who is that Man. Many years ago he also called me and I said yes to that call. In my dialogues with Badru you will hear me bearing witness that I have said yes to the call of that Man and so I am here to bear witness that I am his follower. From that moment our conversations were not just with one another – Jesus was also present.

Now I cannot arrange such dialogues; they come as surprises orchestrated by the Holy Spirit. These kinds of encounters come my way occasionally. Jesus needs witnesses. He does not need defenders. He is his own best defender. But he does need witnesses. I am one of those witnesses. Jesus does not need people who try to prove him, but he does need witnesses . I assure Muslims that I am not here to prove Jesus; I am here to witness. Jesus has called me and I am therefore his witness.

What are some of the most common misconceptions Christians have about Islam/Muslims. What misconceptions to Muslims have about Christians/Christianity?

There are four questions every Muslim has about the Christian faith. Each question is rooted in a misconception. We must answer each of those questions if we expect a Muslim to consider the Christian faith. These are the questions:

1) What do you mean when you say that Jesus is the Son of God?

2 ) What do you mean by Trinity?  

3) Have Christians changed and distorted their scriptures? 

4) How could Jesus who is the Messiah be crucified?

And, sometimes, what do you think of Muhammad?

On the Christian side, the overwhelming question is about terrorism. Every church and synagogue I enter has that question as the top question. Muslims must answer that question satisfactorily if they expect Christians to consider Islam.

The Internet is a blessing and a curse for those wanting to learn about other belief systems, including Islam. Where can a Christian begin to get accurate information about the diverse religion that is Islam?

Read my books. I am serious about that. I have written four books exactly on the question of what is Islam. The “Dialogue” is the first book to read. That describes the Muslim and the Christian faith. Then read the other three books in the “Christian Meeting Muslims.”

First, “Journeys of the Muslim Nation and the Christian Church”. This carefully describes Muslim missionary theology compared to the Christian missions theology .

Then a must reading is the story of Ahmed Haile, Teatime in Mogadishu.

Finally the book on friendships. Each book can be summarized in a word: Dialogue; Witness; Peacemaking; friendship.

I have other books you might consider as well. For example, I have written a thirty hour video series on Islam. That is now being used across central Asia. Then there is a Bible study series written for Muslims. This study has been used in hundreds of Muslim homes.

What excites you about Christian work being done by Anabaptists/Mennonites to reach Muslims with the Gospel? What is left to be done?

The whole Muslim world is troubled by the many expressions of violence within the Muslim Umma [community]. The Anabaptist witness to the peace of Jesus is remarkably good news. Everywhere I go I introduce myself as an emissary of Jesus who is the prince of peace. The doors are never closed to that witness. As far as I can remember in my forty some years of bearing witness to Jesus and his peace, the door is always open and the invitation is always there to share the good news of Jesus.

Are there any general tips or guidelines one should keep in mind with sharing the Gospel with Muslims?

In Revelation 3 we have the promise that Jesus will open the door that can never be closed. The passage then describes the qualities of the church for whom Jesus is opening the door. Those qualities are: doing good deeds; commitment to the scriptures; acceptance of suffering; witnesses for Jesus; patience. These churches also keep their identity to Christ and to the church clear. These qualities enable Jesus to open doors! (Revelation 3:7-12)

If one of our readers feels a burden for doing ministry in an Islamic context, what advice would your give them to go about discerning this call and where they might be most effective?

The best way to test your calling for Muslim ministry is to become acquainted with Muslims and develop friendships. Every Christian needs a Muslim friend and every Muslim needs a Christian friend. It would be great to begin to learn Arabic. That would open doors! Invite a Muslim friend into your home. Hang out with Muslims in the teashops where they hang out. Get acquainted with Muslims. The overwhelming value in Islam is hospitality. Receive and extend hospitality with Muslims.

Four thousand years ago something terrible happened in the home of Abraham. Hospitality was denied to Ishmael and Hagar. The tragedy of that separation has never gone away. Every year in the pilgrimage

The pilgrims enact the account of Hagar looking for water for her son and the angel miraculously redeems Ishmael from death. As a Christian and Anabaptist community we are called to restore the ostracism of Ishmael. We offer the hospitality to Ishmael that was denied in the tragic day 3,500 years ago when Abraham sent Ishmael away into the desert

Pray that Ishmael may indeed be saved! (Genesis 21:8-21)

“God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, What is the matter Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy

up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation. Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer.” (Genesis 21:17-20)


Christianity and Politics: An Interview with Dr. Christopher Petruzzi


Dr. Christopher Petruzzi is professor emeritus at California State University, Fullerton’s Mihaylo School of Business and Economics (having served as assistant professor at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School and at New York University’s Stern School).

In his book “Christianity and Politics: The Attempted Seduction of the Bride of Christ”, Dr. Petruzzi makes the case that the way of Christ stands opposite the way of worldly politics. Bringing in his unique insights as a PhD in economics, Dr. Petruzzi’s book is a great resource for those wishing to go deeper into why Christians ought to reject the siren song of politics in favor of charity, evangelism, and living lives transformed by the Holy Spirit.

Dr. Petruzzi, how does an economist and Evangelical Presbyterian come to write a book about the danger of mixing Christianity and politics, and how did your religious and professional backgrounds help equip you to tackle such a difficult subject?

While I was raised as a Presbyterian and even belonged to a Presbyterian church a few years ago, I am not now a Presbyterian. I am part of Mariners Church which is an evangelical church in Orange County, California.

I became interested in politics and government in my early teen years. In college I became more interested in the economics of government and how that related to property rights and market solutions to economic problems. I was the president of my college’s club of libertarian political economists.

The free- market orientation of economists at the University of Chicago was part of why I picked that university for graduate school, and when my advisor, Arthur Laffer, left Chicago to teach at the University of Southern California I went with him to finish my PhD there. That background left me with the perspective that political solutions to social problems all involved changes in (broadly defined) property rights. They take rights away from some parties while giving them to others.

When, at the age of 39, I became a born-again Christian it became apparent to me that following Christ was not about seeking to change property rights.

The tagline of your book is “The Attempted Seduction of the Bride of Christ.” What is it about the prospect of political power that is so seductive to Christ’s Church What happens when the Church succumbs to political seduction?

People often think of politics as the way to get things done. Prior to the crucifixion even Jesus’ disciples thought that Jesus would take over the worldly government of Israel to bring about his kingdom. They did not understand that Jesus was doing much more than that. He offered a way to change the behavior of people by bringing them into a spiritual kingdom. More important, he offered a way for people to enter into a new relationship with God.

Islam is based on changing people’s behavior by the political solution of a theocracy which forces obedience. That is a substitute for God’s direct rule over their lives. It makes the state into an idol. When Christians become seduced by politics they are following that same false idol and, consequently, rejecting Jesus.

What is the most common objection you hear to the view of Christianity and politics you propose in your book and how do you answer it?

The common objection is that Christians should change the world and that politics is the best way to do that.

I agree that Christians should seek to change the world, but trying to do so through politics leads to failure. The only way that we can genuinely change the world is by leading people to Christ and letting the Holy Spirit change the hearts of men. That needs to be done one person at a time, by witnessing, showing charity, and making ourselves good examples.

While that it may not be the quick and easy solution that people want, it is the only solution that works. Fortunately, as Jesus told us you will find rest for your souls for my yoke is easy and my burden is light”.

Many say that by declining to participate in worldly politics, we refuse to be part of the discussion. If issues such as health care, environmental protection, and religious liberty, for example, are decided in the political arena, isn’t it negligent to not let our voices as Christians be heard?

Most of the private hospitals in the US were started by Christian organizations, and through charitable endeavors like those, we have been an important part of health care. We should continue providing health care to the needy. Political solutions, however, are about forcing other people to spend their own money to provide health care to the needy. That is not a Christian cause.

Each Christian should do his own part on protecting the environment, including little tasks like picking up trash that has been left by other people, and I support courts holding polluters liable for the damages they cause. While they are important, environmental issues are not what I would call Christian issues. Just because an issue has importance and even involves justice, does not make it a Christian issue.

For example, think about Luke 12:13. When a listener asked Jesus to tell his brother to make what was presumably a just division of an inheritance, Jesus said that was not his business. In a similar ways some other issues which involve justice are not our business.

On a similar note, scientific issues are not Christian issues. Global warming and what causes it are scientific issues, and we should leave those to science. There is no Christian position about what causes global warming.

Courts have upheld religious liberty in the US, so that should not be an issue here.

What makes Christian charity a superior more efficient form of charity than government charity, in your view?

That relates to my answer (above) about health care as well as other issues of charity.

First of all, a political solution which forces people to pay for health care or other benefits for the poor does not help the souls of the people who pay or the souls of the people who receive those benefits. The payers just see it as one more tax. They do all they can to avoid the tax, and many resent being forced to pay for the benefits of other people. The recipients see it as an opportunity to get something from the government. Since they know that the people who paid for that benefit were forced to do so, there is no reason for them to feel grateful.

By contrast, Christians who freely give to charity know that they are being obedient to God, and this enhances the Holy Spirit who dwells within them. Similarly, the recipients of Christian charity know that people gave to them out of love. That makes the gift something special to them.

In addition to these spiritual advantages of Christian charity over public benefits, there is a practical side. Taxpayers arrange their affairs to avoid taxes in every way that is legal. That has social costs which do not exist for charitable giving.

Recipients of public benefits arrange their affairs to qualify for more benefits, and that has even greater social costs. For example illegitimacy rates among the poor soared after the creation of the federal program AFDC which provided cash benefits based on number of dependent children in poor households.

Finally, there is the cost of administration which is more expensive for public benefits due to the many rules which are necessary to prevent the system from being exploited.

You seem to think that legislation is not the best way to change behavior, but if laws allowing no-fault divorce and same-sex marriage, for example, influence public morality and normalize certain forms of behavior, could not opposite forms of legislation influence the public morality of the nation in a more Christian direction?

At the time of Jesus’ crucifixion, Roman law and the morality of unbelievers was far worse than anything we see in the US today. What Christians would call bad behavior was normal. People enjoyed watching other human beings being tortured to death in the public arenas. Slave owners could force their slaves to have sex with them. Nonetheless, over the next 280 years, the number of believers grew from about 3,000 on the day of Pentecost to (by my best estimate) more than half the population of the Roman Empire.

Christians changed public morality over this period. Their contrast with the behavior of non-Christians may have been part of why people changed from pagan ways. They changed from their pagan beliefs even though that change sometimes brought the death penalty. If the behavior of unbelievers becomes worse in modern times, it will only make the contrast with Christianity more apparent, and that may help bring more people to Christ.

An outward appearance of moral behavior is enforced in the one fifth of the world that follows Islam. That outward appearance does not bring people closer to Christ, and it might keep them away from him.

In chapter 10 of your book, you write, “while the Bible states that those who bless the children of Israel will themselves be blessed, this does not mean unconditional support for the secular state of Israel” (133). How should Christians approach U.S. policy towards the Israeli State (one thinks of the recent move of the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem, celebrated by many Conservative Evangelicals, for example)?

Other than using the courts to further our rights to worship and witness (as was done by Paul in the Roman Empire and by modern Christians in the US) Christians should not try to influence government policies. Many Christians have let the State of Israel and Jerusalem become idols. We should explain their errors to those Christians with love using the Bible along with historical and scientific facts.

In your own life, how receptive have you found people to your view of Christianity and its relation to politics?

Most Christians do not like this viewpoint. I think that there are a couple reasons for that. Many Christians do not agree with me that Jesus’ words in his Sermon on the Mount apply to us today. They also do not agree with me that while we are in the world, Christians are not part of the world. Politics is part of the world, and I suspect that some Christians want to hang on to that part.

When I myself gave up participation in worldly politics, I was left thinking, “now what do I do?” What do you advise someone in a similar situation, having been convinced to reject the politics of the world and now wondering what he should do to make a positive change?

Worldly politics is an idol, and people make idols of their political leaders. Those leaders, however, will not save them and, for the most part, are not going to make the world a better place. Jesus the Christ is the one and only leader whom we can trust. We cannot be divided on that. Jesus does not want half of our allegiance, or even most of our allegiance. He wants it all.

Christians had a great historical success in making the world a better place, but that success did not come from our involvement in politics. In fact, the involvement in politics hindered Christian success. Our success was through witnessing, charity, and making ourselves good examples. The Holy Spirit helped us with that.

My advice to Christians seeking to make a positive change is to step away from the world, and obey God. We can trust Him.

What are you up to these days? Any new projects on the horizon?

I am working on some academic articles that develop concepts from my book to explain how and why government works the way it does.

I am also continuing with the project on Christian group living which I started a few years ago.

I also have some projects involving innovations in business.

The Life and Legacy of David Lipscomb: An Interview with Dr. John Mark Hicks


Dr. John Mark Hicks is Professor of Theology at Lipscomb University, having taught in institutions affiliated with Churches of Christ for thirty-six years (you can read more about his bio here). In 2006, Dr. Hicks co-wrote the book “Kingdom Come: Embracing the Spiritual Legacy of David Lipscomb and James Harding.”

David Lipscomb’s work “Civil Government” continues to inspire Christians to look past the kingdoms of the world to the Kingdom of God as the solution to humanity’s problems. We thank Dr. Hicks for agreeing to be interviewed on life and legacy of David Lipscomb.

Dr. Hicks, for those unfamiliar with David Lipscomb, can you give us a brief sketch of who he is and how contemporary historians of the Restoration Movement have appraised his impact on the Movement?

David Lipscomb (1831-1917) was born in Tennessee, and he was educated, farmed, and ministered in the area around Nashville, Tennessee for practically all his life. He is recognized as the most significant thought leader among southern Churches of Christ in the post-Civil War era, even into the 20th century.

While all would agree he was a significant figure in the separation of Churches of Christ from the Christian Church due to his opposition to instrumental music in the Christian assembly and the centralization of money and power in missionary societies, among Churches of Christ he is often viewed as a moderate. He did not embrace some of the right-wing perspectives that characterized publications such as the Firm Foundation in Texas. For example, he opposed the practice of reimmersing those who had been previously immersed upon a confession of faith in Jesus simply because they did not understand baptism as the moment when God saved them. Doing what God said because God said to do it was a sufficient motive for faithful obedience, according to Lipscomb.

From the perspective of the Disciples of Christ, Lipscomb is a radical right-winger. From within Churches of Christ, he is a moderate. In fact, if the Disciples had never moved toward higher criticism, the introduction of women preachers, and ecumenicism, Lipscomb would probably have never been as strong on separation from the Christian Church. In other words, while disagreements would still exist, I imagine Lipscomb and contemporary Christian Churches/Churches of Christ would have found some common ground and mutual respect as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Many of our readers will be familiar with Lipscomb’s work “On Civil Government” , which first appeared in the Gospel Advocate magazine which Lipscomb edited and which argued for a strict separation between the people of the Kingdom of God (the Church) and the politics of the kingdoms of the world. How was that work received in Lipscomb’s time? When did his non-participation, non-violence view begin to wane among the Churches of Christ?

Lipsbomb did not originate this position. It was held by a significant number of people in Middle Tennessee at the outbreak of the Civil War, and Tolbert Fanning (1810-1874) advocated it a dozen years before the Civil War at least.

In 1866 Lipscomb published a series of articles articulating his position, and those articles ultimately became the book Civil Government (published in 1889).

The articles and book created considerable controversy. It is difficult to judge percentages, but it appears it was a dominant position in Middle Tennessee but it was not as well received elsewhere. Some suggest that it was a strong minority at the time of World War I, perhaps even a slight majority. I don’t think we can really know exactly.

His view began to wane among Churches of Christ in the 1920s-1930s. World War I began the demise, and as some power brokers within Churches of Christ moved to isolate premillennialists among them, it declined further because his view of civil government was closely linked to an apocalyptic vision of world history (and many added premillennialism to that vision, such as James A. Harding). Ultimately, World War II was the death of this vision of life as the vast majority within Churches of Christ embraced patriotism and nationalism (much as what happened among Northern Christian Churches at the outbreak of the Civil War).

The plethora of responses by Restoration Movement Christians to the plight of the enslaved Africans on American soil, especially in the time surrounding the Civil War, is both fascinating and frustrating. Alexander Campbell seemed to take a moderating view that stressed unity. How did Lipscomb’s view on the institution of slavery compare with Campbell’s?

Yes, Alexander Campbell was a gradualist, that is, he believed the evils of slavery would gradually disappear over time as the nation came to its moral senses, and he did not think slavery should divide churches because it was, in his view, morally sanctioned in some form by the New Testament. Campbell hoped and believed that slavery would disappear in the South just as it had in New England, given enough time and due moral diligence.

Lipscomb held a similar view as Campbell. However, he did regard slavery as a great evil because of the way the slaves were treated and he believed God, in his providence, would find a release for the slaves. Indeed, Lipscomb believed the Civil War was for the purpose of punishing the south for its treatment of the slaves as well as freeing them. At bottom, Lipscomb did not believe in violent revolution, and though Fanning and others were known to buy and free slaves (when freeing them was costly and difficult), Lipscomb submitted to the government as he thought Scripture demanded but worked for the humane treatment of slaves and expected its ultimate dissolution.

You co-wrote a book on David Lipscomb in 2006. And those familiar with your online writings know how Lipscomb, Tolbert Fanning, and James Harding have captured your attention. What is it about these men that fascinates, inspires, and challenges you?

Well, first of all, they are my family of origins as a minister among Churches of Christ. They shaped my family in significant ways. In order to understand myself, I need to understand them. We don’t know who we are unless we know where we have come from and how that has shaped how we think and act in the present.

More than that, however, I find their passion for evangelism, the poor, and critique of government fascinating. They advocated living simply, giving generously, and dedicating their energy toward kingdom-building rather than political and economic power. Their sense of the priesthood of all believers (every Christian is a teacher, missionary, etc.) is powerful, and their sense that the local church is the frontline of the kingdom of God in the world inspires me to focus my attention there. The church truly is, for them, a community that bears witness to others by its own life and practices.

The challenging dimension is holding together the tension between kingdom of God and the desire to bear witness to justice and peace in the world. To what extent is political action necessary if we are going to bear witness to justice? Lipscomb himself favored labor over the business tycoons of the late 19th century; he was a progressive era unionist, even sometimes bordering on a socialist communal agenda without, of course, involving himself in politics themselves. What would Lipscomb have done with the Civil Rights Movement? I think he might have marched (given the changing times) and supported the movement, but to what extent would he have seen the necessity of political action in the legislatures and voting. Probably, I imagine, he would have left that to God though he would have been a voice for humane treatment of people in their social relations and in churches.

Lipscomb obviously was not in favor of Christians taking over the legislature to, for example, “take the country back for God.” Many of us who think similarly are often met with the charge that we believe Christians should “sit back and do nothing.” How would Lipscomb have responded to such a claim?


It is difficult to know exactly what Lipscomb would have done in our contemporary context.

In his own context, he welcomed laws that supported morality though he neither voted for them nor antagonized for those laws. When there are good laws, he is happy to obey them. When there are bad laws, as long as they do not subvert the gospel in any way, he still obeys them.

Civil disobedience is on the table for Lipscomb, though it is difficult to discern when he would actually use such except in extreme circumstances where the law explicitly contradicts the will of God.

He also used his voice to protest war (e.g., Spanish-American War), denounce commercial greed, and advocate for labor. In the Jim Crow south, you do not see him, however, confronting the evil and calling for change, though it is clear he did not agree with Jim Crow laws. One sees this in the context of the church, for example, where there should be no difference between Black and White in the community of faith. Lipscomb opposed the Jim Crow process of segregation that shaped the South in the 1870s-1890s, and it was basically complete by the 1900s.

I don’t think Lipscomb would say, “sit back and do nothing.” He would probably say, “preach the gospel, live as disciples, and bear witness to justice and peace in nonviolent ways.”

Hypothetical scenario: I’m sitting in a Church of Christ and have come to believe Lipscomb, Harding, and Fanning were on to something, especially as it relates to the Christian’s relation to government and war. Now I am wondering if there’s a place for me in the Churches of Christ. What is your advice for such a person for whom the teachings of the leaders of the past are clashing with the realities of present teachings and trends?

I hope there is a place because that is where I sit! There is a persistent stream of thought from Stone and Fanning through Lipscomb and Harding to the present. Pacifism never died out among Churches of Christ, though it was overwhelmed at times. Our heritage has this resource, and we should retrieve for the present, especially in the light of current realities.

However, one must sit with grace, patience, and persistence. Speak when there is opportunity, live peaceably with people, model how to resist evil with good rather than evil, etc.

I imagine Jesus himself had to wonder whether he could endure remaining among his own disciples who wanted to burn cities rather than liberate them. This is part of suffering with Christ and completing the ministry of Christ in our time.

How can we allow the example of David Lipscomb to continue to challenge us in the present day?

The pressures surrounding the Civil War were intense. It is difficult for us to imagine. But suppose someone said (as some did) in the aftermath of 9/11, that our task is peacemaking rather than warmongering. Suppose someone might say, it is just for us to fight back and make war on the Taliban because of what they did to us. It serves justice and freedom.

I imagine Lispcomb heard the same thing in Middle Tennessee from both northern and southern politicos. Each could make their own case. Each employed a “just war” strategy. Lipscomb and others were under tremendous pressure to conform and pick sides and go to war. Some of Lipscomb’s cousins, classmates, teachers, and fellow-students went to war, and some from each of those categories I just listed died. The cultural pressure must have been enormous.


Nevertheless, Lipscomb refused to conform, and he decided for the kingdom of Christ instead of the human kingdoms.

That challenges me. Could I have done that? What would I have done? What should I do now?

Yes, Lipscomb continues to challenge me.

Kingdom Journey: Ted Hake (Part 2)

The Kingdom Journey Series shares how Christians with roots in the Restoration Movement came to embrace Kingdom Christianity.

Name: Ted H. | Age: 67  | Location: Culver, Oregon  | Rest. Mov. Roots: Disciples of Christ

16807701_10212050432718439_7022158697155664650_nRead part one of this interview here.

4.) How did you become interested in a more “radical”, Kingdom focused Christianity? 

So part of our journey was sudden, but much of it has been gradual: seeking our Lord through reading and studying His Word, having times of prayer, and seeking His will for us – what He would have us do regardless of what we want.

There were times growing up where I would have questions. And, of course, the church has changed much from what it was like when I grew up in it. We have visited a few Christian Churches over the years. I believe the members are very sincere in their faith. It just doesn’t feel like “home” anymore.

5.) What have been some of the difficulties along the way?

There were just a few times people seemed to think we were maybe “putting on airs.” After all, they knew us before! We weren’t perfect. We still aren’t perfect – but we are allowing God to perfect us.

We believe strongly in a few things that are different from the way either of us were raised:

That we should honor the Lords day by not working or cause others to work.

We are to dress – and act – modestly. And as far as we are able to live our lives beyond reproach.

That divorce and remarriage is wrong in God’s sight.

That we are to be non-resistant in life; not taking people to court, not voting, not fighting with others, and to obey authorities in the government and church as long as it does not conflict with Scripture.

That the Christian women’s prayer veiling is for today

Our beliefs here have caused some friction in our families and friendships.

6.) Can you explain how Kingdom-centered Christianity has played out practically in your marriage?

I shared above that I was very much backslidden when I met my wife. We married when I was working as a logger in Forks, WA. I know if I had died in that state of not walking with God I would have had nothing but eternal condemnation.

We met and had a long distance relationship for barely 6 months before we married – I drove from Forks, WA to Lebanon, OR on weekends to see her at her parents’ house. In other words, we hardly knew each other.

If I had not come back to the Lord, and we had not given our marriage over to God, I very much doubt we would be married today. I recommend no one gets married under these circumstances. Kingdom-centered Christianity plays out in every day of our marriage in forgiveness, non-resistance, submission, love, putting the other first, and many other Kingdom attributes necessary for marriages

7. ) What can conservative Anabaptists learn from the Restoration Movement and vice versa?

I believe conservative Anabaptists could learn from the Restoration Movement not to place too much emphasis on outward appearance. I do believe outward appearance, like ritual, helps us to remember who we are–who we worship and whose we are–but our heart condition is essential to our faith!

I also believe conservative Anabaptists could learn to support their pastors more, not necessarily just financially, but by helping in the church more so the entire load doesn’t fall on the pastor’s shoulders.

The Restoration Movement, I believe, could learn of nonresistance from the Anabaptists. Accepting our lot from God, taking our lumps from the world, and trusting Him for our sustenance and safety. And also the idea of using the lot to allow God to choose pastors from the spiritually minded men of the congregation, rather than hiring pastors just based on a seminary degree.

8.) What church do you attend currently?

We attend, worship, and hold our membership at the Mennonite church near our home in central OR – Grace Christian Fellowship in Culver, Oregon. And since my work as an Agricultural Consultant takes me into different parts of Oregon, we occasionally worship at Sheridan Mennonite Church in Sheridan, Oregon, where we used to live before moving back to central Oregon.

9.) What encouragement would you give to a reader in a Restoration Movement church who is going through a “Kingdom awakening” of their own?

Read God’s inspired Word! Meditate on it. Pray, asking Him to help you apply His Word to your life!

10. Finally, what is on your book shelf or what are you reading currently (in Scripture or otherwise)?

It was my turn to teach the adult Sunday School class this quarter, which went through the book of Romans, so that was mostly what I have been reading. I also preached (I am not the pastor, but am asked occasionally to bring a message) through I Thessalonians and just recently concluded that series of messages.


Kingdom Journey: Ted Hake (Part 1)

The Kingdom Journey Series shares how Christians with roots in the Restoration Movement came to embrace Kingdom Christianity.

Name: Ted H. | Age: 67  | Location: Culver, Oregon | Rest. Mov. Roots: Disciples of Christ


1.) Brother Hake, tell us a little about yourself?

I was raised in a Christian household, and my Dad was a preacher in the First Christian Church – Disciples of Christ. He continued that calling until I was a Sophomore in High School when we moved back to Oregon. At that time he left the active ministry and began work as an employment counselor – primarily for young men entering into the older Job Corps program in the late 60’s.

We moved around quite a bit when I was growing up as my Dad preached and was attending college. I was born in Lebanon, OR where we lived off and on. Other places we moved to because of his calling were Illinois, Idaho, Oklahoma and Texas. If I remember correctly we moved every 3 or 4 years until I was in high school.

2.)  When did you become a follower of Jesus?

I was 11 when our church hosted a traveling evangelist. I don’t remember his name, but I remember he wore a grey suit, and was balding. What I remember even more though was that during his message I was overcome by a very real sense of guilt and condemnation because of my sins. I accepted Christ that day, and after going through the preparation for baptism class, I was baptized by my Dad fairly soon after.

3.) Can you explain your background and involvement in the Disciples of Christ?

My background was through my family. We as a family may have been involved a little more than some since my Dad was pastor – so we children were occasionally called on to help in different ways, like maybe a music solo, singing in the choir, or just helping out during different events at church.

Unfortunately for my spiritual life, in high school I became interested in worldly things and was very much backslidden for many years of my life – until around 7 years after my wife and I met and got married. I pretty much left the church and put God aside by the time I graduated from high school. Many times my childhood teaching came back to me and reminded me what I was doing was wrong, but I had rationalized it – that it didn’t do me any good to go to church with a bunch of hypocrites, and that I was better off on my own.

4.) You mentioned your wife. How did you both meet?

Not quite a year after I graduated from high school, a girl I had met in school and I started going together and were engaged to be married. Then about a year before the wedding, my Dad died from an accident. He was forty-two. His death pretty much completed my devolving into a life of turmoil.

I had started college, but wasn’t really interested in going to class and certainly wasn’t doing well. We didn’t have much, so I quit college and started working full-time to support our family – as I figured the oldest child should. Then, several months later, my fiancé called off the wedding, about 3 weeks before the date. This was 1970, about one year after Dad died. I was really feeling sorry for myself.

One day I went to every recruiter in Corvallis and Albany to talk to them about joining the service. Every one of them told me I should finish college, then join. I remember going home that night thinking, that’s just great – now no one wants me. I was really upset around then, but years later after I came back to the Lord I could see His hand was on my life during that time even when I wanted nothing to do with Him.

A little over two years later the Lord brought the girl who would become my wife into my life. I was just giving the neighbor girl (neighbor to a man I worked with at the time) a ride to her Aunt in La Grande since he knew I was headed through there to Idaho and she needed a ride that far. To make a somewhat long story short–since in some ways it was very short–we visited in the car for seven hours driving through a January snowstorm, started writing to each other, started seeing each other, and then were married that June in 1973 – 45 years ago this next month.

5.) What changed in your life that led you to return to the Lord?

My wife was raised in the Catholic Church, where we were married. We had one child in 1975 followed by our second in 1977. Then my wife had some medical problems and we weren’t able to have any more.

My wife had become saved from watching a Billy Graham Crusade. I told her I wanted nothing to do with church. I took her and our children, but wouldn’t go myself. I was becoming more convicted almost daily, knowing I needed to come back to the Lord but still resisting in my stubbornness.

Finally, when my wife was in the hospital after an operation and I was headed there as fast as I could go (I was notified she was having some serious problems), I finally began turning to God. In the only time I have felt I actually heard God speak to me audibly. He said “I still love you. You can come back to me.”

Well, praise God; I did come back to Him! My wife had by then left the Catholic Church and had been attending a Pentecostal church. I went with her there a couple of times. Needless to say it was very different from the church setting I had been raised in. I felt the people there were sincere in their faith – but I just didn’t feel comfortable there.

My wife had been invited to, and had been attending, a ladies Bible study at a local Mennonite church. She said maybe we could visit there. We did. And it is hard to explain. It certainly wasn’t as conservative as the Mennonite churches we attend now – but, it just felt like we were “home.”

I publicly recommitted my life to the Lord. My wife was re-baptized as an adult – so I guess she is the only true Anabaptist in our family. We attended there and were members for over nine years, until our developing convictions led us elsewhere.

Click here for part 2!


Kingdom Journey: Eric Miller

The Kingdom Journey Series shares how Christians with roots in the Restoration Movement came to embrace Kingdom Christianity.

Name: Eric M. | Age: 22 | Location: Ohio | Rest. Mov. Roots: Independent Christian Churches


1.) Eric, tell us a little about yourself?

I am Illinoisan by birth, raised in the east-central Illinois city of Champaign-Urbana. I am the youngest of six siblings, adopted by my parents as an infant. I currently live and work in Cincinnati, OH, where I am studying to complete my Bachelor’s Degree in Ministerial Education at a local Bible college. My hope is to pursue an advanced degree in the Bible. However, immediately after school, I plan on moving to Mexico to do mission work.

2.) When did you become a follower of Jesus?

I cannot remember a time when I did not believe in Jesus and the Bible. As early as Kindergarten, I knew I wanted to be a preacher and have always been passionate about living for God.

However, I formally gave my life to Christ in baptism at the age of 11.

3. Can you explain your background and involvement in the Christian Churches?

I was raised in a smallish Christian Church a few miles outside my hometown where my parents have been members for decades. The roots in the Christian Churches run very deep on my mother’s side of the family. My late-grandmother helped plant and was a charter member of one of the local Christian Churches and worked a great deal with youth. My late-great uncle was an evangelist and preacher in the instrumental Churches of Christ and a graduate of Cincinnati Bible College (a Christian Church school).

It was not until Bible college (I did two years at a Christian Church school before transferring) that I found anyone my age even remotely as interested and energized by the history and theology (theologies?) of the Restoration Movement as I was. I loved reading Alexander Campbell’s Millennial Harbinger, and consider him and Barton Stone and so many others of Movement personal heroes of mine who have defined and shaped my faith (and continue to do so).

4. How did you become interested in a more “radical”, Kingdom focused Christianity?

It was a gradual journey.

In fourth grade, I read about the Quakers in Pennsylvania and was fascinated by their separated lifestyle, their distinct way of dress, their practice of not bowing before royalty, and their rejection of violence. I knew nothing about how different modern-day Quakers are from their colonial ancestors or anything like that, but I was impacted. I always felt like the difficulty in telling Christians apart from non-Christians, as is so often the case, was strange. I had a longing for something more.

However, because I had no outlet whatsoever at the time for processing this longing, my desire turned to worldly politics, and I became a news and politics junkie. I debated politics often and was sincerely convinced it was God’s will to elect godly members of “my” party and to change the laws of the government to be more Christian. I was quite patriotic and had the desire to even be some kind of preacher-politician (like James. A Garfield or Mike Huckabee). I even sang in our church’s Veteran’s Day program, in which we erected a giant scaffolding flag in our sanctuary and sang a mix of patriotic and religious songs, including all the fight songs of the branches of the military.

To make a long story short, even though I was consumed by politics, I could not run from the feeling something was wrong.

Like when our church would drape the American flag over the large cross in the sanctuary around patriotic holidays.

Or when I saw a image of children killed in American drone strikes and asked myself “how could I as a pro-life Christian support this.”

Or when member after member of my church got divorced, including a clear case of adultery in the church, without so much as a word from the elders, except to congratulate those who re-married.

Or when a godly sister challenged me about my beliefs regarding head coverings forced me to go back to the Bible for study.

Or in discovering books by Frank Viola and David Bercot. 

The snowball started in 2012, but it was not until the summer of 2014, after watching a debate on the subject, I knew I was a pacifist (this is my preferred term for resistance). By autumn of that year, I had sworn off worldly politics (which was a difficult drawn-out process).

From there it has been a challenging and enriching journey learning and growing.

5.) What have been some of the difficulties along the way?

One of the pitfalls of this kind of journey is that you begin to create in your mind a perfect church which means you jump from place to place looking for fellowship, never feeling satisfied in your heart. The latter definitely describes me and I nearly joined a well-known false religion (whose members are known for going door-to-door) at one point. That experience taught me a lot about learning to live with imperfections and unanswered questions. I am after all an imperfect person myself!

In addition, I lost friends who could not understand how I had been so previously gung ho about “our” political team and only to suddenly take myself completely out of the game. I was very outspoken about a lot of these things, which alienated me from many people.

As anyone who has been on this journey can relate, it can be painfully lonely. I have supportive friends and family, but I have basically had to figure this all out by myself. But God is faithful and I have been blessed to connect with other Christians online and at conferences of similar mine.

7.) What can conservative Anabaptists learn from the Restoration Movement and vice versa?

I remember one Church of Christ preacher warned the Christian Churches to not become a “form of watered-down non-distinct evangelicalism.” I could not agree more. The Christian Churches need to recover a biblical vision of “success” in the church, which cannot always be judged numerically, and ought to look to the Anabaptists as an example of what it means to stick to the old paths and be willing to be different, even if it means everyone won’t like us.

The conservative Anabaptists would do well to look at strong emphasis on outreach and foreign missions among the Christians Churches, which is something I have always been proud of, and to think carefully about the ways in which adding a-biblical hurdle after hurdle for membership may make for strong community, but also keep people from the full Gospel of the Kingdom.

8.) What church do you attend currently?

I help minister at a small Spanish-speaking (instrumental) Church of Christ in Cincinnati, which I adore. When I am able, I enjoy attending services at a local German Baptist congregation

9.) What encouragement would you give to a reader in a Restoration Movement church who is going through a “Kingdom awakening” of their own?

Know you will lose people.

Know no perfect church exists.

Know you are not alone (and don’t do all your Bible/theology study in a vacuum).

Know you do not have make any big decisions immediately (and probably should not).

If you leave your church, leave well.

Don’t take it all too seriously; be willing to laugh at yourself and make mistakes.

Stay close to safe friends and family.

Be careful of going off a theological cliff.

You have things to learn from Christians in your life who have not yet accepted all the Kingdom principles.

Keep your eyes on Jesus. Pray. Embrace the limitations of your knowledge and trust in God.

10. Finally, what is on your book shelf or what are you reading currently?

Most of what I am reading is for school, but I am also in Jeremy Gardiner’s book on head-coverings and Christopher Petruzzi’s book “Christianity and Politics.”

11. Anything else you would like to add?

While it is easier to curse the dark than light a candle, it is much better we light a candle.

I hope this site is a light, however small, that will help call Kingdom Christians and Restoration Movement folks together, and those who do not know Christ into the Kingdom of the Son.

And for those of who have accepted the Gospel of the Kingdom, I pray we would be compelled to internalize its message, encouraged apply its principles, and equipped share it with others.

Kingdom Journey: David Sanabria (Part 2)

The Kingdom Journey Series shares how Christians with roots in the Restoration Movement came to embrace Kingdom Christianity.

Name: David S. | Age: 29 | Location: Tampa | Rest. Mov. Roots:  International Church of Christ


Read part one of this interview here.

5.)  What have been some of the difficulties along the way?

Following Jesus as Savior and King, a citizen of His Kingdom, something totally at odds with the Kingdom of Darkness, presents many challenges personally and relationally.

Personally, my wife and I were ignoring or downplaying many commandments in the NT, necessitating on-going repentance.

Jesus’ teaching that the poor are blessed and the warnings given to the rich (together with passages like Matthew 25:31-46) should put fear in any Westerner.

We also are re-working our finances, wardrobe, and ambitions in light of the Apostles’ teaching on modesty and simplicity of lifestyle. This is challenging for us.

We live very comfortable lives and had to start getting uncomfortable (we are still working on this).

On the relationship side, initially I was failing at being poor in spirit and meek when sharing these things with my wife. After humbling myself, repenting of my abrasiveness, and giving my wife the time to study the Kingdom of God on her own, she and I became of one mind.

This journey would have been much more difficult on my own, but with my wife by my side, I feel more confident in following Jesus to conquer the Promised Land.

Relationally, the next set of challenges came when sharing our unyielding convictions to our closest friends (brothers and sisters in Christ).

Many of our friends agreed and were persuaded on different aspects of the Kingdom message, some more than others, differing from subject to subject. Many great conversations were started and are still ongoing.

We appreciate the love-filled relationships we have within our local ICOC church.

I also began sharing my convictions and sense of direction with the leaders of the church, who expressed many points of agreement, mutual respect, and admiration.

Still, there were simple teachings of Jesus we were not allowed to teach others. Though we were not teachers, we did study the Bible with seekers and new converts. The attitude from the leaders was “you can hold to this conviction, but keep it to yourself”.

This was a problem for us because Jesus was clear in Matthew 28:20, “…and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you…”. I saw our allegiance was being called either to a church or to The King. After much prayer, fasting, pleading to study these things out with the leadership, and hard conversations, my wife and I responded with one voice, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than God, you judge. For we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard” (Acts 4:19:-20).

6.) How does Kingdom-centered Christianity play out practically in a marriage? 

One thing I have learned is that you can’t have Matthew 5:38-48 without Matthew 5:2-10.

In other words, King Jesus as the ruler and His way (perfection a la Matthew 5:48) is the standard of our home. However, our weaknesses and failure to flawlessly execute require much poverty of spirit, weeping, meekness, mercy, and patience for one another (while never excusing or tolerating sin).

Furthermore, calling one another higher is always good when done with a pure heart (no selfish ambitions) and sometimes you have to suffer to be a peacemaker (much easier said than done).

Lastly, we try to keep in mind that our marriage is a testimony of Jesus’ love and unity with His Church (which makes my heart swoon and body tremble simultaneously).

7.) What can conservative Anabaptists and other Kingdom Christians learn from the Restoration Movement and vice versa?

As I only have experience with the ICOC, let me reframe the question as what Anabaptist/Kingdom Christianity can learn from ICOC branch of the Restoration Movement and vice versa.

(Also, I am about to paint with a broad brush, but that is the nature of the question.)

If Anabaptist/Kingdom Christians could learn only one thing from the ICOC, it would be the ICOC’s effort to imitate Jesus in reaching out to the lost.

Jesus touched the ceremonially unclean (lepers, for example) and made them clean while maintaining His own cleanliness, and he called sinners (tax collectors, prostitutes, etc.) out of sin while not partaking in sin.

What Anabaptist and Kingdom Christians have is the “pearl of great price.” This hurting world is suffering under the rule of Satan. Of the many things I learned from the ICOC, one is sometimes we proclaim the Good News of God’s Kingdom by our life more than by our talk or words on signs.

This is risky because it requires engaging the lost and unclean more closely than holding signs from a distance.

Inversely, the ICOC can learn a lot from Kingdom Christianity.

The ICOC, in effort to be “all things to all men” , has over-extended themselves in reaching out to the lost. This abuse of 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 has lead to worldliness and sin being tolerated or even celebrated. This is an existential crisis for the ICOC. The focus Kingdom Christians have for living a holy life is basic to the Faith (Matt. 5:48), and their desire to obey Jesus shows their love for the King (John 14:15).

I would love for the strengths of the two groups to be used to cut off the weakness resulting in a Christ-like balance.

8.) What church do you attend currently?

We decide to leave the ICOC church we were in and work towards a house church in our neighborhood. We now share the Good News of the Kingdom of God and Jesus the King with our neighbors and friends.

We have also been blessed with Kingdom-focused brothers and sisters around the world and have been able to meet many who have gone through similar experiences. These relationships have been crucial for encouragement, confessing sin, admonishment, prayer, accountability, exchanging of teaching resources, and church networking.

We hope to help create a network of house churches which work together to spread the Good News to our local communities and work across cities to build unity.

9.) What encouragement would you give to a reader in a Restoration Movement church who is going through a “Kingdom awakening” of their own?

My encouragement would be to pray and fast often.

Walking in The Way is not easy. I started praying the Lord’s prayer regularly and it has been a blessing. Coming from a Roman Catholic background, I have seen it abused by my extended family, but I also learned the power of this prayer, once I was humble enough to obey Jesus.

This might seem weak, ritualistic, or lacking spirituality, but truly praying this prayer daily and owning what you are saying, discussing each part of the prayer with God, has helped me get through tough times. It has helped me maintain focus on God’s name being glorified, His Kingdom, and His will being done here on earth as it is in heaven. And it has helped me think larger than myself and my emotions by speaking in the plural (our Father, our daily bread, our trespasses).

It was difficult at first, and I wrestled with God through many parts of this prayer, contemplating what Jesus wanted me to be. I had to ask our Father (and myself) if that was truly my desire, and if not, why not.

10.) Finally, what is on your bookshelf or what are you reading currently? 

The Kingdom That Turned the World Upside Down by David Bercot

A Change of Allegiance by Dean Taylor

King Jesus Claims His Church by Finny Kuruvilla

Early Christian Commentary of the Sermon on the Mount by Elliott Nesch

Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up by David Bercot

Will the Theologians Please Sit Down by David Bercot

In God We Don’t Trust by David Bercot

What’s The Truth About Heaven And Hell? by Douglas Jacoby

A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot

The Kingdom of God series (Vol 1-2) by Tom Jones & Steve Brown (I take issue with the conclusion of Volume 2 on Jesus’ teaching about divorce and remarriage, but aside from that, it is is great.)

Mighty Man of God by Sam Lain

Kingdom Journey: David Sanabria (Part 1)

The Kingdom Journey Series shares how Christians with roots in the Restoration Movement came to embrace Kingdom Christianity.

Name: David S. | Age: 28 | Location: Tampa | Rest. Mov. Roots:  International Church of Christ


1.) David, tell us a little about yourself? 

My name is David Sanabria. My wife, Victoria Sanabria, and I live in the Tampa Bay region of Florida. I’m a structural engineer and my wife is a social worker.

My parents are Colombian, migrating to the U.S. in the late 80’s. While I was born and spent most of my childhood in Queens, New York, when I was 2, my family returned to Bogota for 3 years.

Though I was very little, my earliest memories are in Bogota and that time left a lasting impact on my life.

Around age 16, my family moved to Florida where my wife and I met and have lived ever since.

2.) Can you explain your background and involvement in the International Churches of Christ?

I was raised in ICOC churches, but my parents were raised Roman Catholic. When I was an infant, brothers and sisters from the ICOC church in Queens shared their faith with my parents, and, shortly after studying the Bible, my parents decided to follow Jesus and were baptized.

As I mentioned, when I was 2 they returned to Bogota on a mission team to plant a church. Bogota in the early 90’s was a very dangerous place, but God worked powerfully in the city, the church, and my parents’ lives.

This set the stage upon which I was raised.

While the dynamics in my family were not perfect, enough of a foundation was set that from my earliest memories I always wanted to be a disciple of Jesus.

Yet, despite the true desires I had and the foundation my parents gave me, around age 13 I gave my allegiance to the Dominion of Darkness (Col. 1:13) and by 15 had very little to do with the ICOC or God.

3.)  When did you become a follower of Jesus?

When I was 22 years old, after my rebellion against God as an adolescent, life humbled me.

I realized I could not be with the Father who created me by going my way and so chose to follow The Way. After many years of counting the cost, I finally confessed and surrendered to the reign of Jesus of Nazareth (The Logos of God).

On March 30, 2012, I was baptized, dying in the water and being born again of water and the Spirit.

4.) How did you become interested in a more “radical”, Kingdom focused Christianity? 

I was taught many healthy practices and a good amount of sound doctrine by my parents and the ICOC churches. I began studying the Bible on my own at around 9 years old and had read it through 3 times by age 22.

Implementing the simple (yet studious) hermeneutical approach I was taught in the ICOC, I observed and arrived at convictions exclusive to Kingdom Christianity, such as…

Non-resistance (loving your enemy)

Adultery (caused by divorce and remarriage)

Non-involvement in worldly governments (I was not dogmatic about this, but it made no sense that a disciple of Jesus would get involved in earthly governments based on the message of NT)

Head Covering (I could not understand why sisters did not cover their heads when praying)

Still, I did not understand the veracity of the Kingdom of God as there were several Kingdom principles I was not able to see, and some of my understandings were distorted by ICOC practice and teachings. And while I understood from a young age that some of these principles were integral to The Faith, I did not want to be a disciple of Jesus, in part, because of the “Law of Christ” as taught in Matthew 5-7, Luke 6, and elsewhere.

Yet, when I did become a disciple, it only took a few months to realize the ICOC does not teach its members obey the Law of Christ. This shocked me as I just assumed these teachings were a given, especially considering the emphasis put on personal Bible study and obedience. Now there were disciples in the ICOC with varying levels of Kingdom Christian convictions, but almost no one, including myself, held to everything Jesus commanded.

Willful and selective negligence was the norm and I was guilty as anyone else.

This ate at me over some 4.5 years and motivated me to seek God more and study the Bible more diligently.

Douglas Jacoby, an ICOC teacher, helped me a lot by his books, debates, podcast recordings, and a tour of Israel my wife and I attended. On this tour, my wife and I briefly met David and Deborah Bercot. They stood out and I saw Deborah was wearing a head covering.

I was almost jealous of her freedom and boldness to obey the NT without caring what others would think or say.

A month or so later, I heard David Bercot’s audio lesson on The Kingdom of God in which he said, “Oh, I see, you may be thinking. ‘Jesus is talking about a spiritual kingdom, not a real one.’ No, Jesus is talking about a real Kingdom.”

In that moment, everything clicked.

He pointed out a great distortion in my understanding about the Kingdom of God. Just seeing clearly that the Good News was about the Kingdom of God and not about personal salvation made a huge difference.

Also, it gave me a reason for the convictions I had read in the NT. Before they were convictions just floating in the air, but now they are grounded as the Ways of God’s Kingdom.

Understanding that the Good News is centered on the Kingdom of God changed my trajectory and soon after my wife’s.

Click here for part 2!

Kingdom Journey: Shawnele Surplus (Part 2)

The Kingdom Journey Series shares how Christians with roots in the Restoration Movement came to embrace Kingdom Christianity.

Name: Shawnele S. | Age: 50 | Location: Oregon | Rest. Mov. Roots: Church of Christ

30581673_10204940997921578_6265515243640717312_n         Read part one of this interview here.

5.) What have been some of the difficulties along the way?

While most of our specific difficulties may not be the same as others people’s, most will probably have similar general difficulties. That is, many Kingdom teachings are not only foreign, but contrary to what we have been taught it means to be a “good Christian.”

Good Christians” fight for their country.

“Good Christians” are involved politically.

“Good Christians” are patriots – who applaud and emulate the attitudes and actions of their founding fathers.

So, to be a Kingdom Christian is, in our culture, to be “weird” at best…potentially even a “bad Christian” to many. To a large degree, this is an internal struggle – at least at first. However, a lot of these beliefs could be held quietly if one chooses to. But some cannot.
Having a piece of fabric on your head (or your wife having one on her head) is kind of hard to miss. When the internal struggle led to a decision, that led to an external behavior, and that was the next difficulty.

Nearly everyone just ignored my head covering, and everyone we tried to have a meaningful study with refused (including a preacher). However, the few who could be cajoled into taking a cursory look at the topic came away with something like, “Maybe, but it’s not a salvation issue” or “Well… just don’t bind it on others.”  There really was no desire to wrestle with Scripture to discern God‘s actual will in these matters.

So, a difficult and sad thing for us has been finding that our brothers and sisters in Christ weren’t willing to study God’s Word with us. Additionally, we don’t know any Kingdom Christians in our real (non-cyber/book) lives. That is, of course, a discouraging difficulty.

6.) How does this kind of deep wrestling with Scripture play out practically in a marriage? Do you and your husband talk openly about these issues?

Well, I am very blessed that my husband loves God and wants to know Him better and please Him.

In our marriage this looks like a lot of wrestling with Scripture individually and together – and a lot of talking about it. We live in the great Northwest where being a Christian is synonymous with being a gun toting, independent, patriot – rather than a peacemaking, humble, citizen of Heaven only. Much more personally, I am a peacetime veteran. A divorcee. A gun owner.  A long-time political participant and even a political activist (in the past).

We were taught the importance of owning guns and protecting ourselves not only from “bad guys” – but from our government.  The idea of living on as little as possible and giving sacrificially also flew in the face of what we’d been taught about saving up a big nest egg for those retirement years. All of this is to say that these new discussions and discoveries were not even on our radar. This has been completely unfamiliar territory for us for the most part.

I am so grateful Clint and I can trust that we both love each other unconditionally and love and want to please God even more.

While we have wrestled with some of these issues and sometimes one of us is convinced before the other, it is wonderful to have the confidence that your spouse wants you to do what you believe God would have you do even if he is not fully convinced, and also desires to please God himself and be honest with the Word–even if we’re not entirely on the same page (at the time – or ever).

It is such a blessing to have a God-fearing-and-loving partner on this exciting, scary, glorious, nerve-wracking, beautiful journey!

7.) What can conservative Anabaptists learn from the Restoration Movement and vice versa?

I truly think the reason it was so much easier for Clint and I to come to these understandings is because of our Restoration background. The preacher who baptized me in Missoula really taught me to love the Word and seek God’s truth in it for any question or dilemma.

Like I mentioned, head covering was my first real challenge in this regard, and when I applied the same principles I apply to understanding, say, baptism – it was pretty clear what I needed to do. That scenario has played out over and over again on numerous topics. So while I don’t find that “restoring  1st century Christianity” an Anabaptist principle, it is a guiding principle for me.

I firmly believe Jesus and His apostles instituted the church – and Christian lifestyle choices and behaviors – for His people exactly as He intended. I wish that was a guiding star for my Anabaptist brothers and sisters.

I think my Church of Christ brothers and sisters could take a page from the Anabaptists in their willingness to look and behave completely differently than the culture around us. I don’t know if this is just unique to my area, but to the members of the Churches of Christ here, almost nothing could be worse than not blending in, visually–in personal dress, career choices, possession accumulation–with the people around them.

8.) What church do you attend currently?  

Currently, we worship at home following the model we see in 1 Corinthians 14. We have worshiped with other families at home, but restoring first century Christianity was not a goal other families have shared. We pray that the Lord will lead us to another like-minded body of believers – or lead them to our home. (Since worshiping in homes was a first century practice, we do believe in that as well!)

9.) What encouragement would you give to a reader in a Restoration Movement church who is going through a “Kingdom awakening” of their own?  

I teach my children and other ladies to commit to following and loving God’s revealed will. I want that to be their North Star. While remembering these are fallen humans and not infallible, I encourage other women to seek “fellowship”, hopefully in person, but, if not, through the many resources available. I especially appreciate the books of those godly men who have long ago gone to glory (in addition to much of David Bercot’s resources).

Of course, I always encourage prayer  for wisdom and discernment and for God to bring like-minded believers into your sphere.

10.) What is on your book shelf or what are you reading currently (in Scripture or otherwise)?  

To list all of the books I have loved, would take more space than you have!

Will the Real Heretics Please Stand up by David Bercot was really helpful for me because it got me thinking in terms of what the early church believed and why that’s even important. Common Sense by Bercot is also another absolute favorite. When I try to introduce others to these ideas, those are my go to introduction books.

While not necessarily on Kingdom topics in the Anabaptist sense, Fenelon’s Let Go, William Law’s A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life, and Brother Lawrence’s The Practice of the Presence of God are all books I re-read often – as they continue to draw my heart closer to the Lord’s and increase my desire to draw near to know and obey Him.

An Anabaptist book that really rocked my world that I often offer to others is Roger Hertzler’s Through the Eye of a Needle (on the doctrine of non-accumulation). I also listen to Bercot’s talks (many of which can be found free on YouTube) and talks from Followers of the Way (I especially appreciated their debates on war and voting).

11.) Anything else you’d like to add?

As a woman, I find more and more that the deeper I dig into knowing God through His Word, the more I see God has a very unique and very powerful role for women in the Kingdom– one that has certainly been watered down and robbed of its beauty and power over the centuries.

Of course, most women living this beautiful life do not have the time or the motivation (because of their God-given calling and temperament) to write on this topic. While I have a number of Godly Christian female friends, I do not have Kingdom women friends in “real life” – and while I understand why these women aren’t writing and sharing in a public forum like many of the men are, I still wish that was a resource more available to us women.  So – I’d love to know if there are resources for women living the Kingdom life.

Also, just something from our own life to share: we recently switched our homeschool Reading and Language Arts curriculum to Christian Light Publishers – which is an Anabaptist company. We find the stories do a wonderful job of shoring up these new-to-us doctrines and beliefs so that our children have the head start that we didn’t have!

Thank you, Eric. Thank you for providing this forum. I look forward to the other testimonies and reading through your many resources!